A Call to Action & End to Nonsense- “Top Ten” Lists
Posted on 03. Jan, 2010 by Anthony 'Dream' Johnson in Articles
I do my best to remain relentlessly positive, both in my personal life, with The 21 Convention, and especially online. As far as I’m concerned, there is enough negativity in the world, and it does no one any favors to focus on it.
Because of this belief, I originally planned to write nothing about today’s subject, and let it fade away (like it always does). However, history tends to repeat itself, and it certainly has regarding “Top Ten” dating guru lists over the years.
Considering this, and the change I wish to see in the world, I’ve decided that I will voice my opinion on the subject in an effort to eliminate this nonsense, or at least make it more irrelevant than it already is.
To do so, I’ll remain as positive as is practical – or in other words, avoid violating my own principles in order to preserve them, as that would be just a tad hypocritical.
…
Recently there have been a total of four “lists” released in the “pickup community ” that claim to rank dating coaches/instructors on various qualities. The reality is that these lists are created out of personal bias (conscious and unconscious), commercial incentive (the most prominent example being Thundercat’s original top ten PUA list created out of sheer bribery for inclusion in The Game), and other bull$hit.
No one, including a former speaker at The 21 Convention, is neutral, independent, or even remotely free of bias in the creation of these lists.
In the case of the former speaker, he actually went out of his way to create a negative charlatan list. This is baffling to me, as it will only increase those mentioned individuals word of mouth and popularity.
To go even further, it was under the guise of “helping guys” by shedding light on who’s “real” and who’s not – with the unspoken assumption that he is some sort of hero or savior, and people lack the ability to figure this out on their own, with written reviews and transparent video presentations such as those on this very site.
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In an ideal world, would a relatively unbiased, independent, and non-monetarily involved list be beneficial for “people” in general, or remain detrimental?
I assume some may guess yes, and that I am capable of producing such a list – but my opinion is no.
Changing minor details and the source of a “top ten” list doesn’t change the foundational concept, which is fundamentally flawed and harmful for most to read.
…
I believe a core reason men stand to benefit from the “pickup community” in the first place is a life long lack of independent thinking regarding the opposite sex, and trust in one’s own judgment/intuition as a by product.
This, trust in one’s self, is the driving force behind the success of all “naturals” – a false concept in and of itself, as we are all naturally and inherently attractive to the opposite sex in the first place.
Paradoxically, a beginning of this growth in independent and critical thought is the exact reason men find this community.
Considering this, I find it pure nonsense to have a ranked list of any sort for “dating gurus”. Even entertaining the thought of one being useful and nothing short of irrelevant is directly counterproductive to success with women, and becoming a man.
Hence, I have chosen not to write one, or specifically comment on any of the top ten picks on each of these lists – although I will say, some choices left me laughing, some with my jaw on the floor, and some a bit sad (for those undeserving of negative comments and outright ridicule).
In fact, I encourage a boycott of these lists – no commenting, thumb them down on Stumble Upon and other aggregating sites such as Sarge Nation (assuming they have been submitted, otherwise I would recommend leaving the post alone).
Or, just ignore them all together. Don’t discuss them on forums/facebook/chat rooms, unless the discussion is veered in the direction this post is – that they are fundamentally ridiculous, promote guru worshiping, spit in the face of independent free thinking, and generally support the notion that one individual is inherently better than another and is being judged accordingly.
This is not to say that achievements, experiences, actions, character, integrity, and so on are “bad” things to discuss, just separate from the individual as a person and human being – of which, we all are.
By the same token, I don’t condemn personal bias and financial incentive (including indirect) for the production of these lists. There is nothing “wrong” with having a preference, and money itself is not inherently evil – but using these things in bad taste is simply not cool, and ultimately helps no one, including the authors.
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I’ll end this post by saying that if there was one key to the success of this convention, and any success I’ve enjoyed in my personal life, it’s that to think one person is capable of something another is not … is truly laughable.
These lists say exactly that.
Laugh with me, and help eradicate the nonsense that is “top ten” guru lists.
-Dream
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Hey Dream,
Wow this really resonates with me. Because I have been romanced by a lot of “gurus,” many people have said I should put up a Top Ten list.
It’s not going to happen, for many of the reasons you state.
First, yeah, guys should know that often money is changing hands over these things. Like you say, there’s nothing wrong with making money, but to pretend to provide a “neutral” evaluation whilst receiving money behind the scenes and not being up front about it doesn’t meet my needs for authenticity.
Second, guys should know there are personal issues going on. In the case of the former speaker you mention, for example, he seems to have some unresolved feelings about our romantic encounter. I don’t mind him expressing those directly, but when it is turned into an indirect attack … well, again, it doesn’t mean my need for authenticity or consideration. It doesn’t feel good, and it’s not the kind of energy or practice I’d like to see in the world.
Third, as you wisely point out, most of these guys’ MAIN problem is not being self-guided enough. I don’t give advice of any kind for the most part because my intention is to help guys get in touch with their own inner wisdom so they can be that “natural” of which you speak. A top ten list is inconsistent with helping guys make their own decisions and become centered within themselves.
Fourth, a top ten list is judgmental. As a woman, I can say that there is no universal “number one” PUA. How far a guy gets with me or any other woman depends on all kinds of factors that have nothing to do with his “skills,” such as chemistry, what we want from the encounter, timing, context, etc. I’m not interested in participating in a system of judging people.
Fifth, as someone who has been “number one” at a lot of things in her life, I know already it’s not a recipe for any kind of true satisfaction or happiness. There is no emptier feeling in the world than being “number one” and realizing that it has not brought the fulfillment you thought it would.
I’m interested in living in a compassionate world of people who recognize their spiritual equality with each person on this planet. Top Ten lists are not consistent with that intention. So I join you in boycotting them and declining to participate in any kind of ranking of my friends and colleagues.
The paradox being, as you already recognize, that it is the person who recognizes their equality with everyone and makes their own decisions who — not matter how much they are criticized — is actually the beacon of natural attraction
The less we care about other people’s opinions of us, and yet remain compassionate and centered, the more attractive we are.
Cheers on a great post.
- Erika
I hope I am allowed to be honest here:
In my PERSONAL oppinion, I see everyone here (one person in particular) being very reactive to something that should be seen as no more than a joke.
Anthony, I wholely agree with this article. I really respect the overview & “birds eye view perspective” you give over the whole matter. That’s something I greatly admire in your work. It shines through on all levels.
On the other hand, the content of this current article, to me, is something I see to be somewhat arbitrary since it too is mostly just a reaction to what someone else did on the internet…
…and should be seen as totally non important.
I understand that although my comment is merely meant to put awareness on a chainreaction of reactivity, that this is maybe to “critical” for you to allow this on your website…so no hard feelings if you want to sensor my comment.
Big Fan.
You’re always allowed to be honest here man…that’s what this site is all about!
“reactive to something that should be seen as no more than a joke.”
I don’t think this article qualifies as “reactive”. If I personally attacked people, instead of outlining and shedding light on a problem, then it would be “reactive”.
It also encourages (active) inaction rather than further negativity. This, to me, is the equivalent of advising others to do as I do, and follow me, on the subject of independent thinking.
It’s not really “following” if what that person is telling you to do, is genuinely think for yourself! =)
It’s paradoxical, but that’s the way I see it, and it applies to this article as well IMO.
Also, I do suggest this is a joke, and that it is quite laughable. In fact, people viewing these lists as anything but a cruel joke, is part of the problem.
In light of this, I’m not following you on the joke part as a criticism. Feel free to explain further if it warrants further discussion.
“On the other hand, the content of this current article, to me, is something I see to be somewhat arbitrary since it too is mostly just a reaction to what someone else did on the internet…
…and should be seen as totally non important.”
The above applies, but in addition, I have the hunch that this post is a bit elementary for you. I know a few years ago, I looked at top ten lists pretty seriously. Not long after that, with a little contempt, as I was in the early stages of the thoughts reflected in this post (I hadn’t cemented out the concepts yet).
Now?
Well, I think my thoughts are written in the original post enough =). You seem to be on a similar page, hence you’re seeing it as “totally non important”. The lists are, but brining awareness to the core problem is anything but unimportant.
thanks for commenting
-Dream
ps- Only a fool reacts. A warrior acts
Erika… You weren’t ‘romanced’ by anyone. You throw yourself at PUAs left and right. Hell, you even get turned down from time to time.
You’re a groupie – Not an instructor.
When a woman throws herself at guys shes a groupie, but when a guy throws himself at women hes a PUA.
=)
HAHAHAHA!
Awesome comment
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Peter Murphy, Erika Awakening. Erika Awakening said: great post on why we don't do top ten lists: http://www.the21convention.com/2010/01/03/a-call-to-action-end-to-nonsense-top-ten-lists/ [...]
Hey, I agree with you for the most part, and think these lists are pretty useless, but to play the devil’s advocate a bit, they aren’t completely without merit. Here are some reasons:
1) It gives you an idea of who the big names in the industry are. A few years back it was Mystery and Style topping these lists, these days you see guys like Brad P, Sinn, Gambler, etc. True, the lists won’t tell you who the “best” PUA is (whatever that means), but it does give you an idea of who everyone’s talking about.
2) It can be a way to honor instructors who’ve contributed a lot to the seduction community. Again, this doesn’t say anything about how “good” they are, but it is a way of recognizing those who have gained respect and notoriety within the community.
3) People love lists. Look at the cover of any magazine or the content of any blog, and you’ll see lists. Whether it’s actors or movies or event pick up artists, people like to rank things, to organize and categorize things. It’s a basic human instinct. And of course, no list is going to be unbiased (nothing created by humans is), but they can still be entertaining. Heck, even I was tempted to look up these PUA lists after reading this article, just to see who’d made the cut.
So in conclusion, don’t hate the list
If you’re not keen on the ones that others have created, why not make your own? Top 10 PUAs you would like to see at the 2010 convention. Top 10 upcoming PUA instructors that we should pay attention to. Top 10 Videos from the last convention. I would read those lists.
Casual hit the nail on the head. While I agree that top 10 lists are mostly entertainment and politically motivated marketing ploys, as a concept they aren’t completely detrimental/worthless.
In addition to what Casual mentioned, I also find that (some of) the lists are useful in highlighting things (or individuals) the general public might not have heard of. Say, for example, the ‘top 10′ list of 2007 (i think) where thundercat introduced ‘afc adam’ to the world. I’m well aware of the political motivations there, but the fact is, most people not entrenched in following the industry had never heard of Adam. I’m sure that much of the preliminary exposure from that opened a lot of people’s eyes to the new ideas and innovations adam was presenting. Just as I’m sure that there’s some depressed MM-following asian kid out there who’s disillusioned with the 6-foot-tall magician thing and is going to find out about Asian Playboy through the top 10 list this year.
In the end, the lists should be taken for what they are — a marketing tool which may expose you to different people and different ideas. Think of them less as a “guide to who’s the best” and more as a glorified info-mercial. A PU version of the “Top 10 Sony products of 2009… by Sony Entertainment Corp.”
So as an exposure/marketing tool and entertainment, I see no problem with the top 10 list concept. I even agree with most of what Sinn was saying about ‘charlatans,’ even if I don’t agree with the manner in which he’s presenting it. Most guys can’t tell the difference between a good coach and a bad one (see my blog post on shitty instructors, Pt 1) and Sinn is one of the few guys who is enough of a dick to call people out on it in public. We need guys like that, because it keeps things in check (like outlandish marketing claims) so that we can find equilibrium. The Yin and the Yang and all that.
My 2 cents…
P.S. @Caveman: Good to see you again, bro. Remember that “reactivity” refers to EMOTIONAL reactivity, not GENERAL reactivity. It’s ok to react to a shit test (say, by reframing) — just dont EMOTIONALLY react to it (falling into her frame).
Hey Anthony,
Thanks for sharing some much-needed insight. Whenever I see these lists I have a little chuckle. To me, they’re kind of like contests to see who gets to be class president in 8th grade – more about popularity within a self-referencing community than based on actual merit or results.
Ah well… you keep beating your drum and we’ll keep beating ours
We recently put up a “Top Ten Reasons why top ten pickup artist lists sucks”
http://bit.ly/865Bgp
Of course, ours was a bit more tongue in cheek.
-Dulce
Well I had to check out Sinn’s charlatan list … my mouth dropped …
– Sinn’s blog gave Vin DiCarlo an “honorable mention” as allegedly … a “charlatan” … and yet
– Sinn’s new Day Game Mastery program includes … a Vin DiCarlo CD!!!
Wassup with that !??
Exactly…irrational and hypocritical nonsense.
Btw, maybe Sinn is trying to follow in Ross Jeffries footsteps by generating drama with the charlatan list.
After all, Ross has successfully used drama for marketing for years.
I believe both of them use drama in their pick-ups as well, lol.
You know RSD blocked my IP address before. You want to know why? I submitted my site to an open directory on their network. And heaven forbid there’s another social network out there besides RSDNation, where they can’t have all the lemmings revolve around there own teachers.
But you dogg? What do you have? A blog? A once a year a meetup?
And for what? Putting my link down on a related blog post of yours? Hey bro, do you know what a link cloaker does? Do you know how pagerank and linkjuice work? That was specifically why I cloaked the link. From one webmaster to another. I thought somebody over here might have know that.
Oh well, I guess I’d better pull all MY links down that I’ve been promoting YOU and the 21 convention for months on end now for no other reason than I thought you had a good gig going.
Of course I don’t expect you to have any balls to let this through. Just letting you know.. not cool man.
Also, you might want to look up proxy servers, they laugh at your little IP ban
Dude, I’m not even sure what you’re talking about. I too am banned from the RSD Nation, despite having one of their instructors present at the event in 2009. The21Convention.com isn’t banned however, and occasionally members mentioned it on the forum by referring to a speech (mostly Manwhore’s).
“And for what? Putting my link down on a related blog post of yours? Hey bro, do you know what a link cloaker does? Do you know how pagerank and linkjuice work? That was specifically why I cloaked the link. From one webmaster to another. I thought somebody over here might have know that.”
>>>When did I ban you? Dude if you put too many links in a post the spam software catches it and doesn’t allow it to post. Your previous comment with a cloaked link was withheld because you haven’t commented here before (either that, or it had a link). I personally approved it.
“Oh well, I guess I’d better pull all MY links down that I’ve been promoting YOU and the 21 convention for months on end now for no other reason than I thought you had a good gig going.”
>>>Uh, I wasn’t aware there were any incoming links from PuaGathering. Thanks though, we can use all the help we can get. As for promoting your site in the comments on this site, I have no problem with it as long as it’s only your name, or a relevant link like the one you posted earlier. No need to shrink it, although I suppose it looks cleaner that way. We can even do a link exchange if you’re interested.
“Of course I don’t expect you to have any balls to let this through. Just letting you know.. not cool man.”
>>>Why wouldn’t this post be allowed through? Only especially nasty/dickhead comments aren’t allowed through, of which, yours was not.
Hey Dream,
I am sincerely sorry if I got mixed up. I might have over reacted there.
I checked in on the progress of this thread and found I had a “Server could not be found”. I then hit up a proxy and lo behold this page came up. Yeah it just gave me a flashback of the RSD ban. Of course I know I see the website no problem, probably an ISP issue.
It was probably uncalled for to leave that in your thread without knowing all the facts.
Thank you for handling everything smoothly.
-Dulce
1. People deserve to get called out if their products suck. So many people in this community are FAKE AS F***.
2. If you live in a glass house, you shouldn’t throw rocks. Sinn calls out people for their crappy videos, but where are the videos of him in field? That one where he talks about some girls fingers and what they mean for 20 minutes? Weesh.
3. Top ten lists about PUA are and probably always will be biased, that doesn’t mean they aren’t valid for the same reasons Fuji and Casual listed above.
4. Everyone gets banned from RSD, what is it with those guys they won’t let you say anything. Place is a cult. “Believe you are enough, reap girls.. p.s. don’t be a chode. or reactive, or drink. just be alpha. un-reative. the claw.”
5. Dream–> Don’t get caught up in the BS. The #1 reason i like your site is because you have 10x more free content than anyone else. Seriously, it rocks. The #2 reason I like your site is becasue it serves as a neutral ground for all sorts of PUA opinions, philosophies etc. and is NOT your blog on how to get laid. I like that.
6. There will always be haters, c’est la vie.
Appreciate the kinds words man, especially the neutral ground for discussion (although I prefer “independent” over neutral, but that’s semantics).
Just to hit along something that DJ fuji said. If I hadn’t seen a top 10 list, i wouldn’t have known who Adam Lyons was, I wouldn’t have scoured the net for videos featuring him, I wouldn’t have found The 21convention.
Whilst I agree with most of what is written in the article I must admit. Without Thundercat’s top 10 list I would have been much worse off.
Mannik
P.S. I looked through your whole article and I still can’t find the link to your top ten. Did you forget to add it or something?
Must have mis read something, I have not written a top ten. It is unlikely that I ever will (a serious one anyway).
Haha, i was just kidding.